I had shared this on my FB newsfeed and a good friend, Phil Woodward (philosophy professor and author/researcher), had some comments I thought you would be interested in, Diana. With his permission, I am sharing those. I've included my response to him as well. I would be very interested in any response you may have regarding what he or I had to say.
Sonia, I read this post with interest, since I had really resonated with Tish Warren’s NYT piece, of which this post is critical. Warren’s point is that being together, having a shared life in a local space, is not one option alongside other equally good options, but is the sine qua non of being the Church, and we should be wary of establishing precedents and sending messages to the contrary. Ironically, I read her column on a Sunday when my family stayed home church (Eliot had a fever the night before) and participated via our church’s live-stream. I didn’t think we were doing anything wrong, but we certainly weren’t participating in the full sense.
Bass, on the other hand, is urging that for some people and some communities, online participation might actually be the ideal. I’m not sure about that, but certainly she’s right that the body of Christ can take many shapes and rigidity for its own sake doesn’t serve the Kingdom. What she says about how zoom increases vulnerability and equality is really interesting.
I’m ambivalent about the suggestion that someone might need an online option because there is no ‘progressive’ church in her/his local context. On the one hand, I can imagine a situation where someone comes to think that local churches have been compromised, that she/he no longer hears the gospel from them rather than some distorted or even heretical alternative. But if the situation isn’t that dire, then it seems to me that there is some risk of replacing the local church—which takes all kinds, including those who disagree with each other about a lot of stuff—with a church of shared affinities. Imagine replacing ‘progressive’ with any number of other political or demographic categories. It doesn’t sound good.
But my biggest concern, though, is with the tone of affront, which reads to me like a failure of charity. Must we fight about this sort of thing, express indignation toward one another? I don’t think the Church ought to work out her disagreements in public that way. Why not say: yes, Rev. Warren, you’re right to say that the gathering is a non-negotiable for Christ’s church. At the same time, situations differ, and there are situations where the best form of gathering might be online. Here are some of the virtues of that format, here is how to forestall some of the negative consequences you’re worried about, etc. Or am I too insulated in my academic context, unable to read threats when they come, unwilling to gear up? Am I too optimistic about the possibility of collective discernment?
Phil, thank you for sharing so thoroughly. I truly appreciate reading your thoughts, insights and discernment regarding this subject matter. I definitely lean toward a both/and thinking. I believe that vulnerability is absolutely necessary for true relationship to grow among those in community. And, I'm not so sure that I believe true vulnerability can happen without significant in-person experiences together. Although, I'm sure that may be based on the personalities of those involved. After all, we all know that there have always been, and will continue to be, many who attend in-person worship services once a week, but never have and never will develop relationships or community with others who also call that same local church their home church. I don't believe the in-person or online option has changed the habits of those individuals. Honestly, Phil, I would love to have a conversation about this, rather than continue to write about it. Unlike you, I have a much more difficult time expressing myself (my heart) in writing than I do in conversation. So, just one last thing, I'm not in favor of the "political" labels at all. I'm often labeled as liberal, and occasionally progressive, but I feel like that's just an attempt to give us the American-ized labels that we've all been told we have to have . . . no thank you!
As someone who attends a church who opened without enough protections for people like myself who are immunocompromised, I thank you! It really did feel like Jeremy said, "like a kick in the face." The church I attend doesn't do zoom, but my spouse and I early in the pandemic began inviting people to zoom the worship with us. It filled a need to see people even as we couldn't see everyone. The experience has me rethinking the meaning of "community." If we aren't considering the needs of the least of these in our own church community, we aren't really a community. That's my conclusion.
Again, thank you for speaking on behalf of those of us who are often forgotten.
We shouldn't worship Zoom but rather appreciate the gift of technology, and those who use it as a tool for the good of others. But lest we forget, Zoom is material, a nonspiritual entity, and we should be cautious to over-inflate technology and praise it, as if it were of a Godly nature, which it's not. In ways, it allows for a continued isolation and loneliness and feeds into our fear of sickness. We are social creatures and need each other to heal and thrive. It is antithetical to spirituality to be so thankful of technology but view others as contagions. If anything, Zoom is not a savior but a false prophet sending the wrong message. Even without technology, we can collectively worship, through prayer, and in mindful ways, without gathering in a physical way, which is what happened pre-digital era. Wonderfully written article but I do think churches should be open to all for worship, always, and for those who can't offer online.
OMG! I love Zoom and your words explain why. I have gotten better acquainted to people than I did when we sat near each other in a pew. Pretty amazing!
I am 85 and was still able to walk to my church, Grace Episcopal in Madison WI, but there will be a time when that won't be possible. Zoom is my future!
Thanks for your insights. I participate in a prison ministry which has had to move online. We do lose something by not being in a circle together. But what touched my heart were comments from incarcerated people that felt welcomed into homes with bookcases, pictures on walls and pets sleeping on sofas. And hearts that were listening and sharing. An unexpected gift that Zoom made possible. That’s pretty rich.
Zoom has enabled Grace North Church in Berkeley CA to reach out to members in Hong Kong, Alaska and Arizona. Because I live forty minutes away, the "Click and 'I'm there' feature" of Zoom has allowed me to participate in mid-week activities without burning up expensive gasoline or the wear and tear on my 15 year old auto.
Other blessings of Zoom:
I am the Reverend Edgar Shirley Welty, Jr. an United Church of Christ minister who is soon to also joint the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches NACCC The reasons I am planning to do so include:
I was baptized in the NACCC. Through Zoom, I revisited the congregation where they splashed water on my six-year-old head in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I can see the candles on the altar which I lit as a little boy over 66 years ago.
My father, the Reverend Edgar Shirley Welty, Sr. took the pulpit in that church when the regular preacher took a Sunday off. Dad was also the founder of a NACCC Mission namely the Panamerican Institute in Tijuana, in Baja California in Mexico.
My father has been dead for over 37 years. Through Zoom I connect with NACCC churches which I visited with my Dad over 55 years ago. Only a box of ashes are left of my father's flesh but I am flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones. And Zoom allows me to connect with Dad's body of work his Panamerican Institute.
In a way I found you through Zoom. My Sunday school class switched to Zoom during the pandemic. We have kept on meeting that way because it has given us a kind of freedom. Now we meet on Monday evenings. Before, when we met on Sunday mornings, several of us had other responsibilities, e.g. sing in the choir, teaching children, and either were rushed or distracted. Now when we meet we have our own clock - no longer waiting on the Sunday school bell. In one of those Zooms one of my friends mentioned your book, "Freeing Jesus", and I read it. I just watched a YouTube video on the Writing for Life channel in which you quoted your friend who said, "books find their readers." So I wanted to tell you with tears in my eyes that your book found me and I am profoundly grateful.
thank you! I was called out of retirement to pastor a church the beginning of Advent, in 4 days set up zoom worship, with audio help got patch cord for pianist, had to be from our little house as church didn't have adequate wi-fi. It was a great 7 month ride. And allowed for sermon inserts like this dialogue between Peter and God, Acts 10. And Peter met the Syrophoenician woman after her talk with Jesus - email me for links....And people attended from all over the world. What a Body~ Betty Pagett
I'm a 77 yer-old Episcopal priest retired from parish ministry for several years, but continuing my practice as a spiritual director, trained in working with dreams as part of my work, married to a cradle Episcopalian who introduced me to the Episcopal church shortly after we married. We've shared active ministries since then, but Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (15 years now) has kept him mostly homebound. Zoom has been a Godsend that has emerged out of the muck and mire of COVID! I can attend church at 10 on Sunday mornings, at Calvary Church, Summit, NJ, and he can attend as part of the Mystical Body of Zoom. After services, I often bring home Communion to share with him.
I love all the points you make especially thinking outside the box of what inclusion really means. “ Honoring bodies, embodiment, and vulnerable community are more than putting fleshly beings in a room together.”
However, one group is still being left out and that people who are at a socio-economic disadvantage and don’t have the technology or access to the Internet. This is the same issue for low-income students, many of whom did not have a computer or wifi where they lived and that’s not even taking into consideration the children who don’t have homes are are living on the streets.
“It took us to a place where every single flesh-body was treated equally (we all got the exact same size box), had the same privileges on the screen, and where everyone could fully participate in the work of the people.“
However, I do appreciate this article very much. Thank you.
Thanks you for this. I, too, was troubled by this article, both for its unspoken assumptions and the tone of complacent superiority. Your thoughtful response is extremely helpful.
thankyou for this piece, i have seen this issue from two sides of the fence... my elderly mother wants to be physically in a community because she misses hugs and being touched, and singing. It is a longing for the old ways and the past which excluded many people.. I have attended zoom services from the unitarians and have so enjoyed not being in community but worshipping by myself in the country where I cannot physically connect. The church has to wrestle with the issues of community, inclusion, and how to include touch with the people who want to be touched...
I agree!! I have been enriched ten fold because of Zoom! I am 87, and no longer can participate in meetings or lectures that happen at night!
Through Zoom I have meet Scholars such as yourself Diane that bad my soul.
I do not know how to log in or create a password?
I had shared this on my FB newsfeed and a good friend, Phil Woodward (philosophy professor and author/researcher), had some comments I thought you would be interested in, Diana. With his permission, I am sharing those. I've included my response to him as well. I would be very interested in any response you may have regarding what he or I had to say.
Sonia, I read this post with interest, since I had really resonated with Tish Warren’s NYT piece, of which this post is critical. Warren’s point is that being together, having a shared life in a local space, is not one option alongside other equally good options, but is the sine qua non of being the Church, and we should be wary of establishing precedents and sending messages to the contrary. Ironically, I read her column on a Sunday when my family stayed home church (Eliot had a fever the night before) and participated via our church’s live-stream. I didn’t think we were doing anything wrong, but we certainly weren’t participating in the full sense.
Bass, on the other hand, is urging that for some people and some communities, online participation might actually be the ideal. I’m not sure about that, but certainly she’s right that the body of Christ can take many shapes and rigidity for its own sake doesn’t serve the Kingdom. What she says about how zoom increases vulnerability and equality is really interesting.
I’m ambivalent about the suggestion that someone might need an online option because there is no ‘progressive’ church in her/his local context. On the one hand, I can imagine a situation where someone comes to think that local churches have been compromised, that she/he no longer hears the gospel from them rather than some distorted or even heretical alternative. But if the situation isn’t that dire, then it seems to me that there is some risk of replacing the local church—which takes all kinds, including those who disagree with each other about a lot of stuff—with a church of shared affinities. Imagine replacing ‘progressive’ with any number of other political or demographic categories. It doesn’t sound good.
But my biggest concern, though, is with the tone of affront, which reads to me like a failure of charity. Must we fight about this sort of thing, express indignation toward one another? I don’t think the Church ought to work out her disagreements in public that way. Why not say: yes, Rev. Warren, you’re right to say that the gathering is a non-negotiable for Christ’s church. At the same time, situations differ, and there are situations where the best form of gathering might be online. Here are some of the virtues of that format, here is how to forestall some of the negative consequences you’re worried about, etc. Or am I too insulated in my academic context, unable to read threats when they come, unwilling to gear up? Am I too optimistic about the possibility of collective discernment?
Phil, thank you for sharing so thoroughly. I truly appreciate reading your thoughts, insights and discernment regarding this subject matter. I definitely lean toward a both/and thinking. I believe that vulnerability is absolutely necessary for true relationship to grow among those in community. And, I'm not so sure that I believe true vulnerability can happen without significant in-person experiences together. Although, I'm sure that may be based on the personalities of those involved. After all, we all know that there have always been, and will continue to be, many who attend in-person worship services once a week, but never have and never will develop relationships or community with others who also call that same local church their home church. I don't believe the in-person or online option has changed the habits of those individuals. Honestly, Phil, I would love to have a conversation about this, rather than continue to write about it. Unlike you, I have a much more difficult time expressing myself (my heart) in writing than I do in conversation. So, just one last thing, I'm not in favor of the "political" labels at all. I'm often labeled as liberal, and occasionally progressive, but I feel like that's just an attempt to give us the American-ized labels that we've all been told we have to have . . . no thank you!
As someone who attends a church who opened without enough protections for people like myself who are immunocompromised, I thank you! It really did feel like Jeremy said, "like a kick in the face." The church I attend doesn't do zoom, but my spouse and I early in the pandemic began inviting people to zoom the worship with us. It filled a need to see people even as we couldn't see everyone. The experience has me rethinking the meaning of "community." If we aren't considering the needs of the least of these in our own church community, we aren't really a community. That's my conclusion.
Again, thank you for speaking on behalf of those of us who are often forgotten.
We shouldn't worship Zoom but rather appreciate the gift of technology, and those who use it as a tool for the good of others. But lest we forget, Zoom is material, a nonspiritual entity, and we should be cautious to over-inflate technology and praise it, as if it were of a Godly nature, which it's not. In ways, it allows for a continued isolation and loneliness and feeds into our fear of sickness. We are social creatures and need each other to heal and thrive. It is antithetical to spirituality to be so thankful of technology but view others as contagions. If anything, Zoom is not a savior but a false prophet sending the wrong message. Even without technology, we can collectively worship, through prayer, and in mindful ways, without gathering in a physical way, which is what happened pre-digital era. Wonderfully written article but I do think churches should be open to all for worship, always, and for those who can't offer online.
OMG! I love Zoom and your words explain why. I have gotten better acquainted to people than I did when we sat near each other in a pew. Pretty amazing!
I am 85 and was still able to walk to my church, Grace Episcopal in Madison WI, but there will be a time when that won't be possible. Zoom is my future!
Thanks for your insights. I participate in a prison ministry which has had to move online. We do lose something by not being in a circle together. But what touched my heart were comments from incarcerated people that felt welcomed into homes with bookcases, pictures on walls and pets sleeping on sofas. And hearts that were listening and sharing. An unexpected gift that Zoom made possible. That’s pretty rich.
Zoom has enabled Grace North Church in Berkeley CA to reach out to members in Hong Kong, Alaska and Arizona. Because I live forty minutes away, the "Click and 'I'm there' feature" of Zoom has allowed me to participate in mid-week activities without burning up expensive gasoline or the wear and tear on my 15 year old auto.
Other blessings of Zoom:
I am the Reverend Edgar Shirley Welty, Jr. an United Church of Christ minister who is soon to also joint the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches NACCC The reasons I am planning to do so include:
I was baptized in the NACCC. Through Zoom, I revisited the congregation where they splashed water on my six-year-old head in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I can see the candles on the altar which I lit as a little boy over 66 years ago.
My father, the Reverend Edgar Shirley Welty, Sr. took the pulpit in that church when the regular preacher took a Sunday off. Dad was also the founder of a NACCC Mission namely the Panamerican Institute in Tijuana, in Baja California in Mexico.
My father has been dead for over 37 years. Through Zoom I connect with NACCC churches which I visited with my Dad over 55 years ago. Only a box of ashes are left of my father's flesh but I am flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones. And Zoom allows me to connect with Dad's body of work his Panamerican Institute.
In a way I found you through Zoom. My Sunday school class switched to Zoom during the pandemic. We have kept on meeting that way because it has given us a kind of freedom. Now we meet on Monday evenings. Before, when we met on Sunday mornings, several of us had other responsibilities, e.g. sing in the choir, teaching children, and either were rushed or distracted. Now when we meet we have our own clock - no longer waiting on the Sunday school bell. In one of those Zooms one of my friends mentioned your book, "Freeing Jesus", and I read it. I just watched a YouTube video on the Writing for Life channel in which you quoted your friend who said, "books find their readers." So I wanted to tell you with tears in my eyes that your book found me and I am profoundly grateful.
thank you! I was called out of retirement to pastor a church the beginning of Advent, in 4 days set up zoom worship, with audio help got patch cord for pianist, had to be from our little house as church didn't have adequate wi-fi. It was a great 7 month ride. And allowed for sermon inserts like this dialogue between Peter and God, Acts 10. And Peter met the Syrophoenician woman after her talk with Jesus - email me for links....And people attended from all over the world. What a Body~ Betty Pagett
I'm a 77 yer-old Episcopal priest retired from parish ministry for several years, but continuing my practice as a spiritual director, trained in working with dreams as part of my work, married to a cradle Episcopalian who introduced me to the Episcopal church shortly after we married. We've shared active ministries since then, but Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (15 years now) has kept him mostly homebound. Zoom has been a Godsend that has emerged out of the muck and mire of COVID! I can attend church at 10 on Sunday mornings, at Calvary Church, Summit, NJ, and he can attend as part of the Mystical Body of Zoom. After services, I often bring home Communion to share with him.
I love all the points you make especially thinking outside the box of what inclusion really means. “ Honoring bodies, embodiment, and vulnerable community are more than putting fleshly beings in a room together.”
However, one group is still being left out and that people who are at a socio-economic disadvantage and don’t have the technology or access to the Internet. This is the same issue for low-income students, many of whom did not have a computer or wifi where they lived and that’s not even taking into consideration the children who don’t have homes are are living on the streets.
“It took us to a place where every single flesh-body was treated equally (we all got the exact same size box), had the same privileges on the screen, and where everyone could fully participate in the work of the people.“
However, I do appreciate this article very much. Thank you.
thank you
Thanks you for this. I, too, was troubled by this article, both for its unspoken assumptions and the tone of complacent superiority. Your thoughtful response is extremely helpful.
thankyou for this piece, i have seen this issue from two sides of the fence... my elderly mother wants to be physically in a community because she misses hugs and being touched, and singing. It is a longing for the old ways and the past which excluded many people.. I have attended zoom services from the unitarians and have so enjoyed not being in community but worshipping by myself in the country where I cannot physically connect. The church has to wrestle with the issues of community, inclusion, and how to include touch with the people who want to be touched...
Agree!! At 87 zoom church,meetings,podcast etc have helped me to be connected, engaged, and intellectually stimulated.
Thank you!!!