It was difficult to digest the whole musing once this C.S. Lewis quote took over my thoughts, so I will re-read. He wrote about why he prayed (not what is prayer).
"I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I am helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God. It changes me." C.S. Lewis
One of my favorite readings about prayer - or at least I certainly apply it to prayer - is this one by Rev. Gordon McKeeman.
How does one address a mystery?
Cautiously – let us go cautiously, then, to the end of our certainty, to the boundary of all we know, to the rim of uncertainty, to the perimeter of the unknown which surrounds us.
Reverently – let us go with a sense of awe and wonder, a feeling of approaching the powerful holy whose lightning slashes the sky, whose persistence splits concrete with green sprouts, whose miracles are present in every place and moment.
Hopefully – [let us address the mystery hopefully] out of our need for wholeness in our own lives, the reconciliation of mind and heart, the conjunction of reason and passion, the intersection of the timeless with time.
Quietly – for no words will explain the inarticulate or summon the presence that is always present even in our absence.
But what shall I say?
Anything – any anger, any hope, any fear, any joy, any request, any word that comes from the depth of being addressed to Being itself – or, perhaps, nothing, no complaint, no request, no entreaty, no thanksgiving, no praise, no blame, no pretense of knowing or of not knowing.
Simply be in the intimate presence of mystery, unashamed – unadorned – unafraid.
Each time we have a Presidential election our choices seem less and less suitable for the job. Now it appears we must choose the one who is less unsuitable.
This, for me at least, was one of the most profound "issues" (in soooooo many senses of that word) from The Cottage that I've read.
I (an Episcopal-skewing Jew) struggle with both what prayer is and why (in/by all, it seems, denominations) we are told/admonished/advised/counseled (take your pick) to pray. I finally came to the conclusion, along the same lines as the excerpt about prayer you provided, that prayer isn't about getting a response, rather it's about getting more personal/emotional clarity (discernment?) with/about that which we are praying for/about.
Also, after reading John's "quote" all I could think* was "Did he tape this word-perfectly remembered prayer?" (I'm a former journalist....and know for a fact that 100%, to-the-word quoting is impossible.)
And because of that I went looking/Googling for info on who quotes Jesus/in what situations is he quoted.
Sparse, to say the least, so if you (or The Cottagites) could provide links, I'd be most appreciative....and read 'em, too.
Diana, I am familiar with the evangelical "I will pray for you," altho I never had that experience of threat. I have begun to think of prayer as a spiritual energy that goes out to the person I am praying for or "thinking about". Also, those words in John are not Jesus' words, but the writier's thoughts about the Jesus movement, the people of the Way, when the Gospel was written. (Jesus Seminar)
Yes, prayer changes us, as we pray for others. I learned this in a women's weekly prayer meeting I attended faithfully for about eight years. My lovely sisters taught me so much!
One of the most freeing conclusions I've come to is "I don't know". Anne Lamott's husband once said, "I don't know is a portal to the richness inside us", and I just LOVE that! Having come out of the evangelical tradition that claims to "know everything" it's so freeing to just let that go and be open. My vision has expanded exponentially.
My understanding of prayer has evolved so much over time. But I believe the main purpose of prayer is to remind us that God is continually present and we are not alone. That we are connected at an atomic level that never alters, even when our perceptions tell us differently.
Thank you so much for the blessing of the Cottage. I'm so grateful for you, and many other teachers like Nadia Bolz Weber, Brian McClaren, Richard Rohr, Anne Lamott, Beatrice Bruteau and many others who have helped me reclaim my spirituality after deconstructing from evangelicalism.
You know, I have my issues with Brian McLaren. He has two degrees in English and then studied with R. Rohr. He had his own church. He receives $10,000 to $20,000 for his speaking engagements. Is it too much to ask that a theologian have a degree in theology? I read Do I Stay Christian? that came with high praise, but found many of his arguments didn't hold water. Who qualifies as a minister today? As theologian? Look around you, they are everywhere.
One thing I'd like to say is that there is a difference between a minister and a spiritual leader. Often they inhabit the same body, but not always.
I don't know (but do have some thoughts on/about) what it takes to qualify as a spiritual leader, but I do know that to qualify as a minister in today's religiously chaotic times you don't even have to do a stint at/in/with a seminary. All it takes to legitimately/legally add the pre-fix Rev to your name, at least here in the US, is getting a license that says you are a minister (and they come pretty cheap)...at least here in the US today.
Sadly this post tells us far more about you, than it does about Brian McLaren. It reveals a lot about the limits of your understanding and spiritual maturity. I really don't understand your desire to come here to gossip and defame someone like this. What do you get out of it? It's really very sad, and I'm sorry for you.
The idea that people shouldn't be paid for their work is completely bizarre and entirely unreasonable. Do you get paid for your work??? Yet you've decided he shouldn't be paid for his work? What???
The idea that having a degree in theology is the only way you can have anything valid to say is so profoundly elitist and narrow minded. It simple doesn't pass the laugh test, You know Jesus nor any of the disciples had a theology degree! LOL!!
You sound like just the "god in a box entirely within the realm of my understanding and control" evangelicals I've thankfully left entirely in my rearview. Full of "know it all" arrogance, a crap love walk and a lack any apparent of fruit of the spirit. The bible does say you can tell a tree by it's fruit, or lack there of. Cleary your understand of theology hasn't done much for your love walk at all, but it has fully installed a critical, gossiping spirit.
The fact the McLaren doesn't speak to me hardly makes me a Fundamental evangelical. I think the "church of Rome" has been hierarchical and misogynistic for 2,000 years, in contrast to the teachings of Christ. I'm a mainline Christian, Celtic Christian from being a seeker for many years. Educated by choice. And find that by beliefs are more in line with those who moved on from Moody Bible College to the U of C, or some similar school. If that makes me an elitist, then I guess I am. I am an educator. My focus is spirituality.
I was trying to ask what people find in the teachings of McLaren that enrich their lives. Apparently, I did a poor job of this.
The message I've gotten from BM is simple: Seek "the way" that works for you, which is what Jesus and the first-gen disciples called his ministry....The Way.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Brian is one of my closest friends and I trust him absolutely. I love him, cherish our collegiality, and treasure the relationship between our families.
There are many people who write about religion who receive much more than Brian does for speaking engagements -- I could quickly name at least a dozen who make from $50-100K per speech, including a few with theology degrees (and tenured jobs -- so they make huge fees on the top of university salaries). Brian is a freelancer, with no salary other than his books and speaking engagements. Since leaving his congregation (ask him sometime WHY he started a church rather than become a mainline minister -- there's a painful and sad story behind it) years ago, he's had no regular salary. Everyone has a right to support themselves with creative work.
Brian's done far more than informal studies with Richard Rohr. Other the years, he's been in deep conversations with scores of world-class scholars and theologians, having read widely in the field, and has a grasp of the bibliography of theology and religious studies that would easily qualify him for a PhD or two. His understanding and critical acumen of the field is well beyond some of the my colleagues from the profession. I've learned tons from him -- and often been directed to sources I otherwise would have missed.
FWIW, Karl Barth didn't have a theology degree. He randomly studies theology under several famous professors but left university to be a pastor without a formal certification. His doctorate was honorary. Reinhold Niebuhr only earned a seminary degree and never held a doctorate (often than honorary). C.S. Lewis didn't have a degree in theology. Only English. Jonathan Edwards entered Yale at 13, when Yale was pretty much a back-water dump that offered the equivalent of a high school diploma.
Most major theologians in church history didn't hold degrees in theology. Some vaguely studied it; many learned from mentors or pastors; most simply studied on their own by reading the Bible or through books, libraries, and whatever was available to them. Christianity would be far less if anyone who contributed to theology met your requirement of a degree in theology.
It is fine to not agree with an author or dislike a book. But when it comes to personal attacks like vaguely implying that a writer is grifting or criticizing academic credentials that ultimately aren't really important, well, that's uncalled for. Brian is one of the most thoughtful, loyal, honest, kindest, and loving friends I have had; I'm proud to say that and will defend him with every ounce of the same.
In other words, I find this comment incorrect, inconsistent, and out of line.
I apologize if my comment appeared as a personal attack on Brian and I suppose it was regarding what I knew of his education.
But I truly wonder what does it take to be a theologian/minister/ pastor today? (Does Trump qualify?) I was raised liberal Presbyterian, not like your ex-husband, and attend an Episcopal Church. I'm a screaming liberal. But who do we listen to? Who qualifies as a theologian?
I love the historians like yourself and
Bart Ehrman. I love the depth of understanding you bring. Amy Jill Levine's knowledge and ability to translate OT. I met Elaine Pagels and relate to her Why Religion? And that she, too, can translate ancient Hebrew ( Nag Hammadi). I do like the life's path of these three fine people and their education. Elaine told me that Bart sad to her, "How can you know what you know and still believe?" And she replied,"How can you know what you know, and not believe." I respect that integrity about both of them.
Thank you for being you and standing up for your friend. I hope to know him in the same way you do one day. Much love--
Prayer... I often hear the evangelical voices of my youth saying, "You're not praying enough--hard enough, long enough, believing enough. Yet when I breathe in and then out again, I recognize that just that life-giving action, when accompanied by intention, or may not, can be the deepest of prayers. Lately, I have been painting my prayers. With each brush stroke, I find myself in communication/communion with God. And when I pray intercessory prayers, I find myself ending with this phrase: God, we know you are doing far more than we know to ask and we are grateful.
Yes, Diana, I believe Jesus was praying his anxiety out in a beautiful communication/communion with God. I also love how Marcus Borg spoke of the ridiculousness of not doing a thing just because we don’t fully comprehend it. Perhaps the long prayer in John's gospel, like the Psalms, teaches us that there is no "enough" about prayer. Perhaps if Jesus showed us how to struggle in prayer then we too can struggle in prayer. And perhaps, even when Jesus, or we, cannot find the words to speak, the Holy Spirit prays in us and for us.
Inhale...God with us. Exhale...God with all. Amen.
Thanks Diana. What struck me as I read through the text is the idea of “given-ness”: I am given to God and somehow, through the work of the Christ, God is given to me. This is a cosmic unity from before the world existed. There is a deep settledness in me.
It was difficult to digest the whole musing once this C.S. Lewis quote took over my thoughts, so I will re-read. He wrote about why he prayed (not what is prayer).
"I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I am helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God. It changes me." C.S. Lewis
I am thankful that I can access all you offer on my laptop, that I am not required to install an app.
One of my favorite readings about prayer - or at least I certainly apply it to prayer - is this one by Rev. Gordon McKeeman.
How does one address a mystery?
Cautiously – let us go cautiously, then, to the end of our certainty, to the boundary of all we know, to the rim of uncertainty, to the perimeter of the unknown which surrounds us.
Reverently – let us go with a sense of awe and wonder, a feeling of approaching the powerful holy whose lightning slashes the sky, whose persistence splits concrete with green sprouts, whose miracles are present in every place and moment.
Hopefully – [let us address the mystery hopefully] out of our need for wholeness in our own lives, the reconciliation of mind and heart, the conjunction of reason and passion, the intersection of the timeless with time.
Quietly – for no words will explain the inarticulate or summon the presence that is always present even in our absence.
But what shall I say?
Anything – any anger, any hope, any fear, any joy, any request, any word that comes from the depth of being addressed to Being itself – or, perhaps, nothing, no complaint, no request, no entreaty, no thanksgiving, no praise, no blame, no pretense of knowing or of not knowing.
Simply be in the intimate presence of mystery, unashamed – unadorned – unafraid.
And at the end say – Amen.
Wonderful reading.
Prayer. Mystery and Transformation.
Thanks!
Each time we have a Presidential election our choices seem less and less suitable for the job. Now it appears we must choose the one who is less unsuitable.
This, for me at least, was one of the most profound "issues" (in soooooo many senses of that word) from The Cottage that I've read.
I (an Episcopal-skewing Jew) struggle with both what prayer is and why (in/by all, it seems, denominations) we are told/admonished/advised/counseled (take your pick) to pray. I finally came to the conclusion, along the same lines as the excerpt about prayer you provided, that prayer isn't about getting a response, rather it's about getting more personal/emotional clarity (discernment?) with/about that which we are praying for/about.
Also, after reading John's "quote" all I could think* was "Did he tape this word-perfectly remembered prayer?" (I'm a former journalist....and know for a fact that 100%, to-the-word quoting is impossible.)
And because of that I went looking/Googling for info on who quotes Jesus/in what situations is he quoted.
Sparse, to say the least, so if you (or The Cottagites) could provide links, I'd be most appreciative....and read 'em, too.
Thank you! This was so needed today.
Diana, I am familiar with the evangelical "I will pray for you," altho I never had that experience of threat. I have begun to think of prayer as a spiritual energy that goes out to the person I am praying for or "thinking about". Also, those words in John are not Jesus' words, but the writier's thoughts about the Jesus movement, the people of the Way, when the Gospel was written. (Jesus Seminar)
Yes, prayer changes us, as we pray for others. I learned this in a women's weekly prayer meeting I attended faithfully for about eight years. My lovely sisters taught me so much!
One of the most freeing conclusions I've come to is "I don't know". Anne Lamott's husband once said, "I don't know is a portal to the richness inside us", and I just LOVE that! Having come out of the evangelical tradition that claims to "know everything" it's so freeing to just let that go and be open. My vision has expanded exponentially.
My understanding of prayer has evolved so much over time. But I believe the main purpose of prayer is to remind us that God is continually present and we are not alone. That we are connected at an atomic level that never alters, even when our perceptions tell us differently.
Thank you so much for the blessing of the Cottage. I'm so grateful for you, and many other teachers like Nadia Bolz Weber, Brian McClaren, Richard Rohr, Anne Lamott, Beatrice Bruteau and many others who have helped me reclaim my spirituality after deconstructing from evangelicalism.
I think you mean "prescribed" not "proscribed" for The Lord's Prayer.
Thank you for putting words the thoughts of my wandering mind.
Found this quote , thought it apt“Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve.”
― Erich Fromm
You know, I have my issues with Brian McLaren. He has two degrees in English and then studied with R. Rohr. He had his own church. He receives $10,000 to $20,000 for his speaking engagements. Is it too much to ask that a theologian have a degree in theology? I read Do I Stay Christian? that came with high praise, but found many of his arguments didn't hold water. Who qualifies as a minister today? As theologian? Look around you, they are everywhere.
Ms. Allen, And interesting observation.
One thing I'd like to say is that there is a difference between a minister and a spiritual leader. Often they inhabit the same body, but not always.
I don't know (but do have some thoughts on/about) what it takes to qualify as a spiritual leader, but I do know that to qualify as a minister in today's religiously chaotic times you don't even have to do a stint at/in/with a seminary. All it takes to legitimately/legally add the pre-fix Rev to your name, at least here in the US, is getting a license that says you are a minister (and they come pretty cheap)...at least here in the US today.
Sadly this post tells us far more about you, than it does about Brian McLaren. It reveals a lot about the limits of your understanding and spiritual maturity. I really don't understand your desire to come here to gossip and defame someone like this. What do you get out of it? It's really very sad, and I'm sorry for you.
The idea that people shouldn't be paid for their work is completely bizarre and entirely unreasonable. Do you get paid for your work??? Yet you've decided he shouldn't be paid for his work? What???
The idea that having a degree in theology is the only way you can have anything valid to say is so profoundly elitist and narrow minded. It simple doesn't pass the laugh test, You know Jesus nor any of the disciples had a theology degree! LOL!!
You sound like just the "god in a box entirely within the realm of my understanding and control" evangelicals I've thankfully left entirely in my rearview. Full of "know it all" arrogance, a crap love walk and a lack any apparent of fruit of the spirit. The bible does say you can tell a tree by it's fruit, or lack there of. Cleary your understand of theology hasn't done much for your love walk at all, but it has fully installed a critical, gossiping spirit.
The fact the McLaren doesn't speak to me hardly makes me a Fundamental evangelical. I think the "church of Rome" has been hierarchical and misogynistic for 2,000 years, in contrast to the teachings of Christ. I'm a mainline Christian, Celtic Christian from being a seeker for many years. Educated by choice. And find that by beliefs are more in line with those who moved on from Moody Bible College to the U of C, or some similar school. If that makes me an elitist, then I guess I am. I am an educator. My focus is spirituality.
I was trying to ask what people find in the teachings of McLaren that enrich their lives. Apparently, I did a poor job of this.
The message I've gotten from BM is simple: Seek "the way" that works for you, which is what Jesus and the first-gen disciples called his ministry....The Way.
Mu apologies if I misunderstood you.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Brian is one of my closest friends and I trust him absolutely. I love him, cherish our collegiality, and treasure the relationship between our families.
There are many people who write about religion who receive much more than Brian does for speaking engagements -- I could quickly name at least a dozen who make from $50-100K per speech, including a few with theology degrees (and tenured jobs -- so they make huge fees on the top of university salaries). Brian is a freelancer, with no salary other than his books and speaking engagements. Since leaving his congregation (ask him sometime WHY he started a church rather than become a mainline minister -- there's a painful and sad story behind it) years ago, he's had no regular salary. Everyone has a right to support themselves with creative work.
Brian's done far more than informal studies with Richard Rohr. Other the years, he's been in deep conversations with scores of world-class scholars and theologians, having read widely in the field, and has a grasp of the bibliography of theology and religious studies that would easily qualify him for a PhD or two. His understanding and critical acumen of the field is well beyond some of the my colleagues from the profession. I've learned tons from him -- and often been directed to sources I otherwise would have missed.
FWIW, Karl Barth didn't have a theology degree. He randomly studies theology under several famous professors but left university to be a pastor without a formal certification. His doctorate was honorary. Reinhold Niebuhr only earned a seminary degree and never held a doctorate (often than honorary). C.S. Lewis didn't have a degree in theology. Only English. Jonathan Edwards entered Yale at 13, when Yale was pretty much a back-water dump that offered the equivalent of a high school diploma.
Most major theologians in church history didn't hold degrees in theology. Some vaguely studied it; many learned from mentors or pastors; most simply studied on their own by reading the Bible or through books, libraries, and whatever was available to them. Christianity would be far less if anyone who contributed to theology met your requirement of a degree in theology.
It is fine to not agree with an author or dislike a book. But when it comes to personal attacks like vaguely implying that a writer is grifting or criticizing academic credentials that ultimately aren't really important, well, that's uncalled for. Brian is one of the most thoughtful, loyal, honest, kindest, and loving friends I have had; I'm proud to say that and will defend him with every ounce of the same.
In other words, I find this comment incorrect, inconsistent, and out of line.
I apologize if my comment appeared as a personal attack on Brian and I suppose it was regarding what I knew of his education.
But I truly wonder what does it take to be a theologian/minister/ pastor today? (Does Trump qualify?) I was raised liberal Presbyterian, not like your ex-husband, and attend an Episcopal Church. I'm a screaming liberal. But who do we listen to? Who qualifies as a theologian?
I love the historians like yourself and
Bart Ehrman. I love the depth of understanding you bring. Amy Jill Levine's knowledge and ability to translate OT. I met Elaine Pagels and relate to her Why Religion? And that she, too, can translate ancient Hebrew ( Nag Hammadi). I do like the life's path of these three fine people and their education. Elaine told me that Bart sad to her, "How can you know what you know and still believe?" And she replied,"How can you know what you know, and not believe." I respect that integrity about both of them.
Thank you for being you and standing up for your friend. I hope to know him in the same way you do one day. Much love--
Ms. Allen (and DBB), this discussion has been very informative/enlightening.
Prayer... I often hear the evangelical voices of my youth saying, "You're not praying enough--hard enough, long enough, believing enough. Yet when I breathe in and then out again, I recognize that just that life-giving action, when accompanied by intention, or may not, can be the deepest of prayers. Lately, I have been painting my prayers. With each brush stroke, I find myself in communication/communion with God. And when I pray intercessory prayers, I find myself ending with this phrase: God, we know you are doing far more than we know to ask and we are grateful.
Yes, Diana, I believe Jesus was praying his anxiety out in a beautiful communication/communion with God. I also love how Marcus Borg spoke of the ridiculousness of not doing a thing just because we don’t fully comprehend it. Perhaps the long prayer in John's gospel, like the Psalms, teaches us that there is no "enough" about prayer. Perhaps if Jesus showed us how to struggle in prayer then we too can struggle in prayer. And perhaps, even when Jesus, or we, cannot find the words to speak, the Holy Spirit prays in us and for us.
Inhale...God with us. Exhale...God with all. Amen.
Thanks Diana. What struck me as I read through the text is the idea of “given-ness”: I am given to God and somehow, through the work of the Christ, God is given to me. This is a cosmic unity from before the world existed. There is a deep settledness in me.