Luke 9:23 has always been a favorite of mine; especially since we were showered with the phrase, "Put America first." Of course when Jesus says this, he has not yet been crucified; so his disciples would have heard that differently than we do now. They had seen crucifixions because Rome wanted them to see them. But what would that image mean to them before Jesus himself was crucified? - Doug Carpenter, Birmingham
I think of sin as the brokenness or "flaw" that runs through each human - some weak point or line is where we are tempted toward "sinning". As a pastor and theologian, I see that not everyone is broken the same way - some of us are drawn to additions, some to moral failure, some to breaks in relationship (pride, greed, gossip, etc.) That break is still a vulnerability, but Christ continues to heal us in every way.
I attended Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York, '89-'92. We were all encouraged to use our own hermeneutics when writing or speaking. The trick was you had to know and describe your social location. Of course, UTS/NYC is full of proclaimed heretics!
I learned from my childhood hero, the Rev. Dr. Albert Schweitzer, that being a follower of Jesus is far more important than subscribing to the doctrines and creeds that have been developed in the Church. - Doug Carpenter, retired Episcopal Priest.
I have struggled with the concept of the Trinity and how to explain it to non Christians when it is so confusing to me. In bible study classes I have learned that Jesus was "In the beginning". Wow and wow. My study group and I have lively discussions around these 2 topics.
I do not believe in Original Sin! I am very much in line with the thinking of Ireneous and Pelagius and other thinkers....Please add John Philip Newell to that list of thinkers and authors. I have read most of his books and been on retreat with him several times. His Celtic sensibilities match my own way of viewing our world.
Thank you for the questions we all must feel and think after reading your heartfelt, honest post.
I am grateful for the questions that surfaced in me, after many years of traditional church that had become stale and stagnant. When I attempted to share my questions/concerns with others, I found only a few others who were willing to share their own questions and feelings. Most people want to remain comfortable, in the same pew, repeating creeds that have lost meaning and checking to see who is in church. Once I realized that I had not fully embraced what Jesus had- each person, all of nature, those who have been rejected, and His worldwide community- once I stopped my dualistic thinking, instead seeking the other way- I have been more content. I find that my horrific guilt, carried nearly my entire lifetime, has been replaced with an energy to serve others in new ways. Every day I pray for His love to fill me up so that love spills over to others. I really appreciate your post, as this struggle with sin can consume one, especially if the message in church describes sinful selves headed straight to hell. How in the world could one feel good about a hateful God judge? I hold hands daily with the One who loves and forgives. This is a lifelong journey that continues and I am holding onto love.
"I wonder if that is the original sin, the capacity to blame, to avoid responsibility, to throw another into the fire so we don't burn". Padraig O'Tuama
A wonderful submission, Diana. Thank you for articulating what many of us in the UCC have been hearing in our sanctuaries, Sunday school rooms, and nurseries since birth.
Regarding your experience of seminary as “Seminary taught me one thing: ignore the promptings of your own heart; your experience does not matter. Theology is a matter of submission to ideas shaped by men who were smarter than you. Orthodoxy is everything. Keep your head down.” This breaks my heart. I’m so sorry that was your experience. I went to Andover Newton, now Andover Newton at Yale, and my experience was the polar opposite.
I tend to think more about Pelagius(sp?) and the notion that the goodness of God resides in every human being. In seminary became acutely aware of sin in racism. Devastating to realize that the parents I loved and who loved me- had raised to believe something abiut others that was wrong, was a lie. If that was a lie, then what else might be a lie. They would not have thought of themselves as sinning but they were eradicating in my perceptions the goodness of God which resides in others. Also think of Jesus- salvation - as being as JP Newell has described- the salve to bring healing and reconcilation. Sin I think is a word we throw about without really thinking about what we mean. I appreciate your getting us to think...with critical consciousness.
2. Is there a connection between Taylor's less depraved theology and Christian Universalism?
3. I had a seminar professor who said there were two sins perpetrated in Eden. The first was seeking to be God. The second was hiding from God. She argued that men tend to commitment first sin and women tend to commit the second (though that's an aside). These two sins sound similar to what you describe: the sins of pride and of the negation of self.
4. "Sin does indeed lead to death," you write. I think you're right. I also think discipleship leads to death, though perhaps death of another sort ... take up your cross and all that.
Thanks for the reflection, particularly the second paragraph where the discussion of choice and our nature is discussed. Essentially, I think Pelagius and his position (as I think I understand it) that we are not 'born sinful' but more of a blank slate was correct. While we can become inclined toward sin, we can also become inclined toward the divine. Sadly, Augustine had better P.R.
"I allowed myself to be colonized by a system that wanted to silence me and participated in the kind of obedience that slaughters the soul." - There you cut right to the heart of the matter. Do I submit to what I know in my heart-of-hearts is not right for me? Or do I settle for the "better good" that conforms to what others understand as the truth and that may determine my future? Can my "soul" be un-slaughtered? Or, once slaughtered, is it forever? Hopefully, only seventy times seven. But that may not be enough.
I totally agree with you, except I have disagreed with the idea that we are born as sinners in my long Christian life of 79 years, and have been chastised for speaking up. I don’t think God creates “junk,” so it’s hard for me to believe in sin as a construct of our being. Thank you for your writing. We are studying Sacred Ground at our church now, and I am reading you.
Luke 9:23 has always been a favorite of mine; especially since we were showered with the phrase, "Put America first." Of course when Jesus says this, he has not yet been crucified; so his disciples would have heard that differently than we do now. They had seen crucifixions because Rome wanted them to see them. But what would that image mean to them before Jesus himself was crucified? - Doug Carpenter, Birmingham
I think of sin as the brokenness or "flaw" that runs through each human - some weak point or line is where we are tempted toward "sinning". As a pastor and theologian, I see that not everyone is broken the same way - some of us are drawn to additions, some to moral failure, some to breaks in relationship (pride, greed, gossip, etc.) That break is still a vulnerability, but Christ continues to heal us in every way.
❤️❤️❤️ Jesus Girl !!!!
I attended Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York, '89-'92. We were all encouraged to use our own hermeneutics when writing or speaking. The trick was you had to know and describe your social location. Of course, UTS/NYC is full of proclaimed heretics!
I learned from my childhood hero, the Rev. Dr. Albert Schweitzer, that being a follower of Jesus is far more important than subscribing to the doctrines and creeds that have been developed in the Church. - Doug Carpenter, retired Episcopal Priest.
I have struggled with the concept of the Trinity and how to explain it to non Christians when it is so confusing to me. In bible study classes I have learned that Jesus was "In the beginning". Wow and wow. My study group and I have lively discussions around these 2 topics.
I do not believe in Original Sin! I am very much in line with the thinking of Ireneous and Pelagius and other thinkers....Please add John Philip Newell to that list of thinkers and authors. I have read most of his books and been on retreat with him several times. His Celtic sensibilities match my own way of viewing our world.
Diane-
Thank you for the questions we all must feel and think after reading your heartfelt, honest post.
I am grateful for the questions that surfaced in me, after many years of traditional church that had become stale and stagnant. When I attempted to share my questions/concerns with others, I found only a few others who were willing to share their own questions and feelings. Most people want to remain comfortable, in the same pew, repeating creeds that have lost meaning and checking to see who is in church. Once I realized that I had not fully embraced what Jesus had- each person, all of nature, those who have been rejected, and His worldwide community- once I stopped my dualistic thinking, instead seeking the other way- I have been more content. I find that my horrific guilt, carried nearly my entire lifetime, has been replaced with an energy to serve others in new ways. Every day I pray for His love to fill me up so that love spills over to others. I really appreciate your post, as this struggle with sin can consume one, especially if the message in church describes sinful selves headed straight to hell. How in the world could one feel good about a hateful God judge? I hold hands daily with the One who loves and forgives. This is a lifelong journey that continues and I am holding onto love.
"I wonder if that is the original sin, the capacity to blame, to avoid responsibility, to throw another into the fire so we don't burn". Padraig O'Tuama
Thank you for a helpful signpost on my current walk. God is Love, not damnation.
A wonderful submission, Diana. Thank you for articulating what many of us in the UCC have been hearing in our sanctuaries, Sunday school rooms, and nurseries since birth.
Regarding your experience of seminary as “Seminary taught me one thing: ignore the promptings of your own heart; your experience does not matter. Theology is a matter of submission to ideas shaped by men who were smarter than you. Orthodoxy is everything. Keep your head down.” This breaks my heart. I’m so sorry that was your experience. I went to Andover Newton, now Andover Newton at Yale, and my experience was the polar opposite.
I tend to think more about Pelagius(sp?) and the notion that the goodness of God resides in every human being. In seminary became acutely aware of sin in racism. Devastating to realize that the parents I loved and who loved me- had raised to believe something abiut others that was wrong, was a lie. If that was a lie, then what else might be a lie. They would not have thought of themselves as sinning but they were eradicating in my perceptions the goodness of God which resides in others. Also think of Jesus- salvation - as being as JP Newell has described- the salve to bring healing and reconcilation. Sin I think is a word we throw about without really thinking about what we mean. I appreciate your getting us to think...with critical consciousness.
A few thoughts/questions/etc.:
1. When I googled "Taylor-Tyler debate," I got all sorts of references to hockey. Apparently, in 2010, there was a debate was to who would be the better player, Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin (see https://lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2019/10/16/a-look-back-at-the-taylor-hall-vs-tyler-seguin-debate/). Not helpful, though somewhat amusing.
2. Is there a connection between Taylor's less depraved theology and Christian Universalism?
3. I had a seminar professor who said there were two sins perpetrated in Eden. The first was seeking to be God. The second was hiding from God. She argued that men tend to commitment first sin and women tend to commit the second (though that's an aside). These two sins sound similar to what you describe: the sins of pride and of the negation of self.
4. "Sin does indeed lead to death," you write. I think you're right. I also think discipleship leads to death, though perhaps death of another sort ... take up your cross and all that.
Thanks for the reflection, particularly the second paragraph where the discussion of choice and our nature is discussed. Essentially, I think Pelagius and his position (as I think I understand it) that we are not 'born sinful' but more of a blank slate was correct. While we can become inclined toward sin, we can also become inclined toward the divine. Sadly, Augustine had better P.R.
"I allowed myself to be colonized by a system that wanted to silence me and participated in the kind of obedience that slaughters the soul." - There you cut right to the heart of the matter. Do I submit to what I know in my heart-of-hearts is not right for me? Or do I settle for the "better good" that conforms to what others understand as the truth and that may determine my future? Can my "soul" be un-slaughtered? Or, once slaughtered, is it forever? Hopefully, only seventy times seven. But that may not be enough.
I totally agree with you, except I have disagreed with the idea that we are born as sinners in my long Christian life of 79 years, and have been chastised for speaking up. I don’t think God creates “junk,” so it’s hard for me to believe in sin as a construct of our being. Thank you for your writing. We are studying Sacred Ground at our church now, and I am reading you.