The paid subscriber community at The Cottage recently had a live Zoom gathering with Elizabeth “Libbie” Schrader, the New Testament scholar whose work on Mary Magdalene in John 11 has sparked international debate. Schrader will submit her dissertation at Duke this spring, and she will join the faculty at Villanova University this autumn.
Next Sunday, the lectionary gospel is John 11:1-45. Since so many of you have preaching and teaching responsibilities, I invited Libbie back to the Cottage (her first visit was in October 2021) to talk about recent developments in her work and offer suggestions for sharing her research with congregations.
The longer, video recording of the live conversation with the complete Q&A is for paid subscribers only.
But many people who are part of the larger free Cottage community have requested access as well. In response to your requests, we’ve taken the audio from the Zoom recording, edited it, and left out the Q&A — and created this shorter audio “podcast” that is available and shareable to everyone.
Once again, Libbie Schrader rocked our spiritual imagination, especially in the last few minutes of the conversation when she shared her beliefs about the nature of the Bible and the deeper meanings of the Gospel of John. She offered a perspective on biblical interpretation that I don’t think I’ve ever heard before.
I think you’ll find this conversation inspiring and encouraging. And it is not just for preachers. But, if you are a preacher, I hope you’ll tackle John 11 next Sunday with her research in mind — and in your heart.
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Here’s the text of John 11:1-5 as it currently exists in the NRSV:
1 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill.
3So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.”
4But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This illness does not lead to death; rather it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. . .
Here’s Libbie’s reconstruction of the text based on her work with the textual changes discovered in ancient manuscripts:
Note from Elizabeth: “This reconstruction comes from readings in Codex Alexandrinus before correction (John 11:1-2), Papyrus 66 before correction (John 11:3-4), and Codex Colbertinus (John 11:5), which is uncorrected.”
1 There was a certain sick man, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary his sister.
2 Now this was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 Therefore Mary sent to him, saying, “Lord, behold, the one you love is sick.”
4 But when Jesus heard he said to her, “The sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Lazarus and his sister.
I love, love love it when she mentions about the wounding of the text. In our times, there are many viable information sources on theology and history and we have so much more available to us now. Many forget, have forgotten and will forget how easy it is to be puffed up with knowledge and spend much less time being "puffed up" with the Spirit. I am one of those that Libby mentioned being ready to receive what she is saying. Of course, God knew that the texts would be misused and therefore knew how they would be misused and what would follow because of it. This is simply amazing and thank you again for having that conversation with Libby and for the many that have followed and are to come!
Ms. Schrader makes a compelling case for changes in John 11:1-5, but says nothing about the subsequent verses, 11-28 where It would apperar that "text corrections" would be more complex. How would she explain these verses?
Copied from the Comment Thread below:
Also, another reader asked this question and Libbie passed on her answer:
Dear friend: As per our private convo, I reached out to Libbie. She sent me a quick reply to pass on, as she's swamped finishing her dissertation and isn't able to jump in right now. Here's what she said:
Elizabeth Schrader: As far as John 11:28, here is how I always respond to that one: since these are the only verses where the sisters interact with each other, by my thesis they would have been composed by the editor/interpolator of Martha. An expansion of the text to include Martha would explain the "bookended" duplicate quote “Lord if you had been here, my brother would not have died” at John 11:21 and John 11:32. Then again, Martha is present in every known manuscript of John 11, i.e. the interpolation was successful, so it makes sense that every copy that survived retains the interaction between the sisters. If a manuscript was discovered with Martha absent, I suspect that portion of the text would look different. (And I do always tell them about Egeria too 😊)
Thank you for this. Perhaps Ms. Schrader will explain her puzzling reference to Egeria later. :)
I had mentioned Egeria in the private email to the original questioner. Libbie, who read the original conversation, confirmed what I said.
In Egenia's 4th century diary, she writes how she visited the place where "Mary went out to meet Jesus," indicating an alternate tradition of one sister.
many thanks !
"The Word is vulnerable"--it would be interesting to get Bart Ehrman's take on that fine theologion. He recounts that his own decision to specialize in textual criticism of the Bible followed from the urgent question that occurred to him, back when he was at Moody Bible Institute and Wheaton College: If God is good and wise and powerful and loving enough to inspire the Bible, every word of which Christians believe to be inerrant, why wasn't he also able, or willing, to prevent it from being distorted into countless variant readings? Maybe Ehrman should have learned to be more Pauline!
On John 11: Many of us have come to accept that the Gospels according to Luke and John were both composed at places in the Aegean basin, Luke a few years earlier, and John specifically at Ephesus, though Luke too may have been in Ephesus. There are a few noteworthy correspondences between those two gospels. And it seems evident that there is some sort of sharing of sources, or cross-influence, in the matter of the three characters Lazarus, Mary and Martha. In Luke, not only is there the fascinating little story about the two sisters, visited by Jesus, at 10.38-42, but there is also the great parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the Beggar, at 16.19-31, which ends with the suggestion that Lazarus, who has died in the course of the story, should be restored to life. So the suggestion that an originally Martha-less John 11 might be redacted in one textual tradition--one which came to prevail--so as to add Martha and thus do a bit of harmonizing with the Lucan pair of sisters is not at all incredible.
A difficulty of one kind with the idea of an originally Martha-less John 11, apparently focused on just the verses of the opening section of the chapter, is having to explain what was the original state of verses 28 to 32, in which the two sisters are plainly different characters relating to Jesus in different ways. In particular Mary in verse 32 speaks in a way that would seem to be impossible for someone who just a short while before uttered the christological confession of verse 27. Is there any indication what the full text of John 11 was for those Church Fathers who attribute the christological confession to Mary, not Martha? Was Martha present at all in this story for them?
(BTW, on Tertullian: If the word is out that he was something of a misogynist, sure, why not; anyway there were hardly many outspoken advocates for women's rights among that crew. But to complicate things a bit, let's remember that Tertullian came to admire the Montanists greatly, mostly because of their great asceticism; and the Montanists were especially popular for promoting the Spirit-inspired "revelations" of two women of Asia Minor, Prisca and Maximilla.)
A difficulty of a different sort, for those who like to practice "canon criticism," is that there is something delightful in meeting the two sisters in both those places, in Luke and again in John. Many have observed that their respective personalities, so well drawn in the Lucan story, are developed further in the story in John. In fact Diana shared a lovely poem a while ago that was based on that observation. No doubt it would be unpleasant for them to be told they must forget about Martha now as Lazarus' sister.
As for Mary Magdalene, the suggestion that she is in fact the Mary in John 11 remains as unconvincing now as it was before. And in any case, whether it is Mary or Martha who makes the christological confession, she is still a woman making it--and if male Christians in the second century were alarmed by one woman's saying those words, why would their minds be put at rest once they were told that in fact it was another woman who said them?
(Regarding the wording of the christological confession at 11.27: We need to distinguish its significance in its original Johannine Christian context, from what it sounded like among the dominant Petrine Christians who came to adopt the Gospel of John as a true Scripture. Yes, the confession resembles Peter's famous confession at Matthew 16.16, where it has terrific importance--and so Libbie Schrader is quite right to tell us that those words coming from the mouth of a woman might very well startle a Petrine Christian, especially perhaps a male one, who heard John 11 and remembered Matthew 16. But I disagree with Sandra Schneiders (in "Written That You May Believe") that this utterance is a pinnacle of Johannine Christology. The thing is, Jesus was already called "the one who is to come," "the Christ," and "the Son of God" in the very first chapter of the gospel, and the latter two titles are the subjects of dispute toward the end of chapter 10. So Martha's confession, following her misunderstanding of Jesus' earlier promise that Lazarus would be raised, comes across as the perfect statement of a Christian believer who uses the common terms that Petrine Christians use. But the gospel was written in part to build a bridge of peace between Johannine and Petrine Christians, so those terms can be used in John 11, and they can return in the story of Thomas in 20.)
Libbie thinks the similarity of the scene of the raising of a dead person at a soon emptied tomb in John 11 to that in John 20--the one raised being Jesus, and the slightly belated witness being MMag--is so great that MMag must in fact be present in both scenes. Well, I suppose that's not impossible, but it seems hardly necessary. Biblical literature has examples of similar narrative situations involving different characters, e.g. the stoning of Stephen in Acts, resembling in some detail the crucifixion of Jesus in Luke; and in Torah there are several instances of eligible young(ish) men meeting their brides at wells.
On the epithet "Magdalene": I wrote about this before, and was totally dismissed; nevertheless, though mad be my mission, let me try again. The word is a "gentile" or toponymic adjective, indicating where someone is from, and composed of the root of the place in question's name, plus the suffix "-ênós" if masculine, "-ênê" if feminine. Adjectives of this type were common in Hellenistic Greek, not least for people from the Levant and Asia Minor: cf. Nazarene, Gerasene, Gadarene, Damascene, Palmyrene, Antiochene, Edessene, Pergamene, Lampsacene. Any Greek-speaking reader of the Gospels in Greek would at once interpret "Magdalene" to mean "a woman (more precisely, a feminine-gender being) from (a place called something like) Magdala." So contemporary admirers of MMag are perfectly justified to go on calling her "Mary of Magdala," even if the identification of Magdala, e.g. as Magdala Nunnaya, is not so secure as it once was thought to be.
No Greek-speaking Christian had any way of suspecting there might be a nickname meaning "the Tower" hidden behind "Magdalene." Jerome here is not a reliable source. He was not suggesting "tower" as if he knew of a tradition behind it; rather, he was being a rhetorical Roman, trying to impress his readers with his knowledge of Semitic languages and his interpretative hagiological creativity. If MMag's contemporaries, Christian speakers of Aramaic, ever referred to her as "tower," that memory was lost to Greek-speaking Christians. If there were any interest in preserving the nickname "tower" in referring to her in Greek writing, it is very unlikely that they would have hit upon the word "Magdalene" to do so.
Bart is on Elizabeth's dissertation committee. They are well acquainted and Bart knows and supports her work.
Yes, I remember Elizabeth's telling me that Bart Ehrman is on her dissertation committee. If I was not clear, I did not mean to suggest he does not "support" her work. I was just expressing simple curiosity about what he might have to say about what Libbie said in her recorded conversation with you--not part of her "work" but rather her preaching, which I assume is separate from her academic activities.
Why is "work" in quotes -- as if you don't see it was genuine?
I was quoting you, in fact, when you asserted that Bart Ehrman "supports her work." It is wrong to attribute to me any suggestion that her work is not genuine. (It's very uneven in quality, so far as I can see, but that's an entirely different matter.) My point was just that the theological statement belongs to what Libbie said by way of preaching on John 11, and her preaching presumably is not a part of her scholarship on John 11, including her dissertation and related papers.
Also, another reader asked this question and Libbie passed on her answer:
Dear XXX: As per our private convo, I reached out to Libbie. She sent me a quick reply to pass on, as she's swamped finishing her dissertation and isn't able to jump in right now. Here's what she said:
Elizabeth Schrader: As far as John 11:28, here is how I always respond to that one: since these are the only verses where the sisters interact with each other, by my thesis they would have been composed by the editor/interpolator of Martha. An expansion of the text to include Martha would explain the "bookended" duplicate quote “Lord if you had been here, my brother would not have died” at John 11:21 and John 11:32. Then again, Martha is present in every known manuscript of John 11, i.e. the interpolation was successful, so it makes sense that every copy that survived retains the interaction between the sisters. If a manuscript was discovered with Martha absent, I suspect that portion of the text would look different. (And I do always tell them about Egeria too 😊)
AND NOW - I'm on a writing retreat and won't jump in to answer again. Everything you say or bring up is dealt with fully in Libbie's forthcoming work -- as she's been asked all these questions (and more) by the best Bible scholars in the world. In the last year alone, she lectured all over Europe. And she's making her case -- and many top level academics are taking it very seriously.
Thanks, Diana, for sending this.
There is no denying that Libbie's work thus far deserves to be "taken very seriously." But her work has distinct parts, and there is no reason to think they're all of equivalent value. I for one am most appreciative of her discovery of a pattern of "problems around the names Mary and Martha" in early manuscripts of John 11, and would consider her description of those problems, in the light of the undeniable but never quite explicable relationship between Luke and John, to be enough to make a really very good dissertation. It's her unnecessary reaching further to reconstruct an original version of a Martha-less John 11 featuring Mary Magdalene that brings in a number of problems, the seriousness of which she is unwilling to acknowledge. If only she were to admit that her solutions, such as she's offered, are not nearly so easy and obvious as she likes to present them, and that her discussion of Mary Magdalene is in large measure speculative and inevitably controversial, about which reasonable people could disagree, that would be a most welcome advance.
As to this comment on John 11.28 that she has found time to pass along, if this is how she "always responds to that one," then she has been complacently "always responding" with an incomplete answer that leads to further puzzlement. The "editor/interpolator of Martha" turns out to be a not bad little dramatist, with a knack for Johannine style--amazing! By contrast, the interpolated story of the woman taken in adultery, at the beginning of John 8, is plainly the work of an author other than John. And to Mark's gospel, which ended at 16.8, were appended not one but two post-resurrection appearance narratives, neither looking as though Mark could have been the author. But John 11 is just special, I guess.
She always responds in a particular way does NOT mean she's complacent or hasn't thought about it. And this: "Libbie's work thus far deserves".... And the tone of your comments regarding her and her work ... Really?
Honestly, these comments are quite insulting. As for Bart, if you are a New Testament prof, he's your colleague, so ask him.
It means that people often ask the question and she's thought through it. And she continues to think through it. And will continue to do so as evidence mounts, as she adjusts her interpretation, as her real colleagues prompt new investigations. She's one of the most gifted, thorough, detail-oriented, humble, genuine, open, caring, patient, and non-defensive people I've ever met in the academy.
I'm way too busy to spend any more time on this.
It is certainly not my intention to be insulting, just to express myself frankly. Honestly, I find Libbie's manner very often to be quite insulting. Your calling her "non-defensive" just suggests you don't see the way she comes across. In fact her style of polemical rhetoric is sharply deployed.
I am not acquainted with Bart Ehrman (with whom I'm certainly not on a first-name basis), though I like very much his writings on the New Testament and early Christianity. And I meant no criticism of Libbie at all when I wondered out loud what he would think of her fascinating theological suggestion, which she brought up in the context of her preaching on John 11, "The Word is vulnerable." Indeed since she is as close to him as you say she is, she might herself wish to pose the same question to him that I was just wondering about.
Thank you for your time. Especially seeing that you as well as she seem to have your minds quite made up, I certainly wouldn't want you to spend any more of it on this.
And now, by admission, you're unable to see that your "frankness" was in fact insulting and back peddling with a statement of "wondering out loud" testifies that you are on a well traveled path.
I have been following Elizabeth's work for almost a couple of years now, and I wait with bated breath for every new insight she brings. One thought I had while listening, if the text was "allowing its own wounding," what are the possibilities that Mary Magdalene - on some level - was a contributing author to Papyrus 66 or other potentially earlier manuscripts? I suppose we can't know of anything earlier, but I have to wonder if she in her lineage somehow told the story, only to have it edited by the threatened patriarchy.
I listened to this on the way to the office this morning, and I was struck (as it appears others were) by Dr. Schrader's preaching option, which was utterly beautiful. Most of the folks I serve are not ready to hear the truth of what we have done to the text and because of the text, but the journey toward that place where they might be ready is one worth taking.
That is amazing, isn't it.
How wonderful to have the truth shining! As the beloved companion, the author of what we have read as from John seems most likely to have been from this Mary.
This was powerful. Thank you Elizabeth for your work.
Eliz Schrader's conclusion here , her surmise was so powerful it made me cry with joy.
Could Lazarus be the disciple that Jesus loved throughout the scriptures, vs the assumption it was John? When my pastor was in seminary, one of his fellow students put forth a strong case for this.
Thanks. Dorinda Dunlap
Or perhaps Mary Magdalene...
Finally heard this evaluation of ancient texts from Diana's colleague, Elizabeth Schrader - having heard Diana preach on this theory of John 11 at the closing worship of the 2022 Wild Goose Festival. As a Biblical storyteller, I have seen a relationship between Luke and John such that some stories complement each other to provide us with fuller portraits of some of the people characterized in the Gospels. I believe this is true for Peter the Rock - and Mary the Tower. I won't argue that here, because I love what Elizabeth has done - and with Diana's affirmation, in bringing this fresh interpretation to light. I love the implication of the anticipated 'illness'/wound, and God's anticipation that someone would unravel the mystery one day.
This whole interview is incredible but the last 8 minutes (ways to preach this) is life changing. What an incredibly beautiful and authentic way to wrestle with the humanness of scripture and how it is still inspired/inspiring us today! Brilliant!
This is the truth.
Diana I listened to your sermon based on Elizabeth’s work. I think you preached it at Wild Goose. It talked about Martha and Mary being just one person.
If I remember correctly Elizabeth stated the why Martha was even listed.
Can you explain why Martha was added. I don’t think she discussed this in the present podcast.
Having trouble locating the link for the full recording w/ the Q&A
The email was sent on March 17. If you ever miss something, just go to The Cottage archive. https://dianabutlerbass.substack.com/archive
Paid subscribers have full access. Also, you might want to look around in different emails boxes (social tab, spam box, etc) to make sure that everything is getting through your email.
Found it now. I was looking for a separate link/listing in the archives. I just needed to forward through the video. Thank you, Diana
I have only watched the first episode, but the series about Jesus on Netflix called "The Chosen" starts with Mary Magdalene's emotional turmoil, and his intervention in her life. Have you watched this, Diana?
I’ve been enthralled with the historical fiction of Kathleen McGowan’s work on nature of the relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus in her trilogy of novels on the subject This is highlighted by John’s accounts as well and, based on culture of the time, leads one to believe there is a much more intimate relationship than the church will embrace. It answers a lot of questions for me and brings a completeness to the trinity in a way that I have never felt until now. Thank you for this.