Joyful and expansive theses. Thank you. A couple thoughts: 1) I am struggling with the word "entire" in number six. Perhaps 'a primary' or 'very important' might help me, but I'll keep struggling with this. 2) Since I know of you and your work, I realize suffering is a reality and implied in these theses. However, there is a way to read and support number five through a prosperity gospel lens. Since I interact with so many flavors of 'Christians' I am amazed at how the same statements can be taken so many different ways. So perhaps something on humility or suffering may be helpful. Of course, I can write my own theses (perhaps each of us should do that) but wanted to comment on these two areas.
Diane with you words on my heart, I attended a new church with the hope to experience a presbyterian worship service that reflected at least several of points you expressed! I was so disappointed!
I wonder where does one go find the theology that is willing to change!
I loved this piece (and I barely understood half of it...but I'm working on getting the rest) .
You definitely "nailed" it.
And, since I'm in my church's Theology Matters (love that play on words) workshop, I'm sending the link to it to the priest leading the program/workshop.
For the last few years I've been slowly leaving the building I enter on Sunday mornings. Very soon I'll say goodbye to the building so I can fully embrace these eight theses I've carried in the heart for a while. I will miss their faces but not their insistence on management of the Gospel. My journey continues...
Extraordinary, Diana. I love your theses. They resonate deeply with my rabbinic consciousness as I look out at the religious landscape of our time. Now I have to sit down and write my own. We have much to talk about.
Hi Diana, we've crossed paths at a few events, but don't think we've ever met. To your four verses, I would add Matthew 5:10 - "blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice's sake for their is the commonwealth of God" - (i.e. in 2021, they are the redeemers of our unprecedented global civilization's institutions' missions for our common good and that of posterity.
But such a verse is "radioactive" to you and your demographic, best I can tell. Why? Because it might make, shall I say "inconvenient," demands on your/their professional standing and economic security - the operative "gods" of most middle class and above pewsitters in America (and rest of world) in 2021.
The Doomsday Clock of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is now closer, longer, to midnight than at any time in its over 70 year history, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock. It signifies the likelihood of human-caused civilizational destruction.
So which of your 8 theses is relevant to the "facts on ground" in 2021 and can you elaborate on their relevance, if any?
Thanks,
Joseph (Joe) Carson, PE - deeply concerned Christian, licensed professional engineer (PE); federal agency employee; American and crew member of planet earth
Hi Diana, I think I hit a nerve. What is the alleged accusation that you would rather dismiss than address? I invite a civil disputation on my contentions - I think them relevant to the chances those born in 2021 get to have - as I, you and your subscribers are - a flourishing life, concluded, as I think the same folks expect theirs to be - a natural death.
How, if at all, are your theses connected to the Gospel of Jesus, insofar as advancing and defending may require the voluntary self-sacrifice of "suffering persecution for justice's sake"?
This recent story about the rigged financial system of planet earth of year 2021 - enabled by the bystanding, if not active participation, of many professing Christians - may be a starting point for such a civil disputation.
I just think you're being rude. You are violating the standards and tone of The Cottage. This is NOT a place for dispute (even ones you deem "civil" - which your comments weren't). Period. PERIOD. NO DISPUTATIONS. If you want that, start your own newsletter. This is a place for genuine conversation. You've been invited into my office - not to accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge regarding my life (like in the comment above - "I hit a nerve," and subtly accusing me of being a "bystander" Christian").
Also: If you can't figure out for yourself how the 11 books, thousands of lectures I've delivered, hundreds of articles I've written, and the scores of sermons I've preached, speak to issues of justice and love and passion for God's creation, there's literally nothing I can say here to answer your question.
If indeed, you actually read my work, please do come back and engage some of these issues when:
1) you have lost three jobs due to your public support of and ally-ship with marginalized people;
2) your only work is a job you create yourself with no stable income from month to month;
3) you have no health insurance;
4) a broken family because you've challenged white supremacy, their racism, and political attitudes;
5) experience consistent and persistent sexism and gender discrimination and exclusion for six decades of existence; and
6) when people act as if they understand your life and insult you in public on a regular basis.
Perhaps then we can talk about what persecution for justice's sake means in real life (and not as some abstract theological theory), who might actually be a "bystander" Christian, the cruelty of our financial system, and the threats to our beautiful planet earth.
PS the "moral dilemma" I face is whether I should advocate Christian engineers to become a collective and intentional influence in their largely self-regulating profession (a redundant statement, professions are, by definition, significantly self-regulating). One result would be the murder of such Christian engineers, in many places around the world, when they choose not to bystand to wrongdoing they witness related to their employment/engineering practice - or the loss of job, professional standing and economic security every else in world; and the bystanding of Christian religious professionals and the institutions they lead to their suffering/persecution for justice's sake.
First, I appreciate the attention to my perception. I apologize for the tone of my comments. I face a moral dilemma in that by dint of 30 years of whistleblowing about things relevant to nuclear weapon material security and national catastrophes as 9/11 and extent of covid casualties in USA; I am now an influential member of humanity's largest and most global profession of engineering regarding its secular creed/DNA - the scope and implementation of its code of ethics.
There is no collective and intentional Christian "salt and light" influence in my profession - never has been one, not since it took on its modern form about 1850 - and no Christian religious professional, from Pope on down, takes exception to it. Instead, as it has been repeatedly explained to me by many Christian religious professionals (I'm summarizing dozens of conversations) "
Joe, you are a Christian engineering professional and deliver engineering goods and services for your livelihood. I am a Christian religious professional and deliver religious good and services for my livelihood. Please do not come to me with concerns, no matter how valid, about how institutional evil, that results in many innocents deaths, is enabled in and through your significantly self-regulating profession of engineering. Because if I were to "rock boats" about how people as you - members of professions as engineers, lawyers, CPAs, MD's, etc. - make a living, some with "rock boats back" leaving me saying "would you like fries with that?" in my next job - and I have a family to care for. Please understand. Shalom.
Diana, I take no exception to the accuracy of any of the above. If Christian religious professionals were to take formal exception to established legal records of corporation or gov't agency law-breaking that kills people; to call for the resolution of well-evidenced claims of such law-breaking by whistleblowers like me; or express concern about allegations or legal determinations of reprisal against whistleblowers like me; it would not be in their self-interest; there likely would be negative consequences to their professional standing and economic security. No question in my mind.
But is their bystanding - even if a reflection of valid fears to their professional standing and economic security - the right answer vis-a-vis advancing and defending God's will on earth - presuming that includes trustworthy institutions that advance human flourishing, now and for posterity?
I'll move on, I have no desire to come across further as "fingers on a chalkboard" with you, as I now already have.
My first full time job as an engineer was to play an active role in the deaths of 20 million people, if so ordered, as an officer on a nuclear ballistic submarine. That was over 40 years ago and the Doomsday clock is closer to midnight now than then. Our unprecedented global civilization increasingly resembles a suicide machine and people as you don't "connect the dots" between the voluntary self-sacrifice of foolhardy folks as I in being whistleblowers in non-violently confronting institutional evil and maintaining and advancing the trustworthy societal institutions that are necessary - and possibly sufficient - for the commonwealth of God to arrive on earth.
I wish I were wrong in my observations - I would feel better about the chances of our first grandchild - due in 2/22 - getting to die a natural death after enjoying a flourishing life.
But such a verse is "radioactive" to you and your demographic, best I can tell. Why? Because it might make, shall I say "inconvenient," demands on your/their professional standing and economic security - the operative "gods" of most middle class and above pewsitters in America (and rest of world) in 2021.
And that you are willing to make sacrifices for the sake of a greater good. How about understanding that you aren't alone in that ability, and recognizing that many people are doing the same in their own ways, from their own places in life? I'm sorry if you have been treated badly. Just don't do the same to people you don't know. You aren't the only hero, and not everyone else is a bystander. We all do our bit.
I believe it was “radioactive to you and your demographic,” whatever that may be. (I work at a church and make less than $30,000/year. That demographic?) You want her to say something she didn’t say. You are saying things in a way she finds offensive. I suggest you read Grateful for some of her thoughts on how the world is unjustly structured. You could read Freeing Jesus for some of her thoughts on the Gospel. Both of these works were referenced in the post. There are layers and layers to her 8 theses, not all covered, of course, in the post. (This was, by the way, written before Diana was even aware of your latest comment. I am not posting for her. There was no nerve hit. She just thought you were rude.)
The entire world is surely blessed by your firm commitment and adherence to what truly matters within the context of authentic spirituality! Old ways are hard to change, but your voice is coming through loud and clear!
Re Thesis 5: Let's hope that asserting a canon -- a canon of love -- within the canon will defend us from those who prefer to use the Scriptures as a kind of arsenal or armory, and reach into them in order to grab hold of texts to be wielded as weapons. For me, the canon within the canon includes the Magnificat (Luke 1), and the Beatitudes (Matthew 5), which share this theme: For those who are weak, those who can never expect to "succeed" as the world measures success, those who are looked on as losers and failures, God nevertheless assures them of revolution and unmatched joy.
You are an unimaginable treasure to us ‘progressives’ spread across the globe. (In my case Oz). Keep going!! You are doing great! And best wishes in your search for a community where you are welcomed. I think it was Brian McLaren who said, “you are not mad, and you are not alone”. 😌
Thank you Diana for your these 8 points. You were able to make clear for me what my faith is all about now as I have journeyed in these last ten years from evangelicalism ( numbers oriented) to a new way of living and practice, and yet I think the more authentic and and ancient way( formation/new creation)
I pray that these 8 points would exemplify my life as well
There are wonderful, but #4 gave me the most to think about today. The power of beauty on the path to liberation. Perhaps Keats had it correct about beauty and truth.
A numbers orientation to growth leads churches to anticipate some kind of Pentecost experience if they can only “get it right.” I’m aware of a church that had spent several thousand dollars (been sold) on a church growth program that came in a Monopoly-sized box. They expected the incoming assistant pastor to implement it. I agree, Diana, that growth happens when individual and corporate houses are built on the solid ground of faith development, which doesn’t typically happen like a wind come sweeping down the plain! Thank you for your continued passion to nail things down for the sake of raising the things that elude nailing.😊
Joyful and expansive theses. Thank you. A couple thoughts: 1) I am struggling with the word "entire" in number six. Perhaps 'a primary' or 'very important' might help me, but I'll keep struggling with this. 2) Since I know of you and your work, I realize suffering is a reality and implied in these theses. However, there is a way to read and support number five through a prosperity gospel lens. Since I interact with so many flavors of 'Christians' I am amazed at how the same statements can be taken so many different ways. So perhaps something on humility or suffering may be helpful. Of course, I can write my own theses (perhaps each of us should do that) but wanted to comment on these two areas.
Diane with you words on my heart, I attended a new church with the hope to experience a presbyterian worship service that reflected at least several of points you expressed! I was so disappointed!
I wonder where does one go find the theology that is willing to change!
Thank you for your wisdom!
I loved this piece (and I barely understood half of it...but I'm working on getting the rest) .
You definitely "nailed" it.
And, since I'm in my church's Theology Matters (love that play on words) workshop, I'm sending the link to it to the priest leading the program/workshop.
For the last few years I've been slowly leaving the building I enter on Sunday mornings. Very soon I'll say goodbye to the building so I can fully embrace these eight theses I've carried in the heart for a while. I will miss their faces but not their insistence on management of the Gospel. My journey continues...
Extraordinary, Diana. I love your theses. They resonate deeply with my rabbinic consciousness as I look out at the religious landscape of our time. Now I have to sit down and write my own. We have much to talk about.
I hoped you read this post - was looking forward to how you would respond. And your comment does not disappoint! We do have much to talk about.
Hi Diana, we've crossed paths at a few events, but don't think we've ever met. To your four verses, I would add Matthew 5:10 - "blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice's sake for their is the commonwealth of God" - (i.e. in 2021, they are the redeemers of our unprecedented global civilization's institutions' missions for our common good and that of posterity.
But such a verse is "radioactive" to you and your demographic, best I can tell. Why? Because it might make, shall I say "inconvenient," demands on your/their professional standing and economic security - the operative "gods" of most middle class and above pewsitters in America (and rest of world) in 2021.
The Doomsday Clock of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is now closer, longer, to midnight than at any time in its over 70 year history, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock. It signifies the likelihood of human-caused civilizational destruction.
So which of your 8 theses is relevant to the "facts on ground" in 2021 and can you elaborate on their relevance, if any?
Thanks,
Joseph (Joe) Carson, PE - deeply concerned Christian, licensed professional engineer (PE); federal agency employee; American and crew member of planet earth
Knoxville, TN
The Cottage is a place for conversation, not accusation.
Hi Diana, I think I hit a nerve. What is the alleged accusation that you would rather dismiss than address? I invite a civil disputation on my contentions - I think them relevant to the chances those born in 2021 get to have - as I, you and your subscribers are - a flourishing life, concluded, as I think the same folks expect theirs to be - a natural death.
How, if at all, are your theses connected to the Gospel of Jesus, insofar as advancing and defending may require the voluntary self-sacrifice of "suffering persecution for justice's sake"?
This recent story about the rigged financial system of planet earth of year 2021 - enabled by the bystanding, if not active participation, of many professing Christians - may be a starting point for such a civil disputation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/11/opinion/pandora-papers-britain-london.html
I just think you're being rude. You are violating the standards and tone of The Cottage. This is NOT a place for dispute (even ones you deem "civil" - which your comments weren't). Period. PERIOD. NO DISPUTATIONS. If you want that, start your own newsletter. This is a place for genuine conversation. You've been invited into my office - not to accuse me of things of which you have no knowledge regarding my life (like in the comment above - "I hit a nerve," and subtly accusing me of being a "bystander" Christian").
Also: If you can't figure out for yourself how the 11 books, thousands of lectures I've delivered, hundreds of articles I've written, and the scores of sermons I've preached, speak to issues of justice and love and passion for God's creation, there's literally nothing I can say here to answer your question.
If indeed, you actually read my work, please do come back and engage some of these issues when:
1) you have lost three jobs due to your public support of and ally-ship with marginalized people;
2) your only work is a job you create yourself with no stable income from month to month;
3) you have no health insurance;
4) a broken family because you've challenged white supremacy, their racism, and political attitudes;
5) experience consistent and persistent sexism and gender discrimination and exclusion for six decades of existence; and
6) when people act as if they understand your life and insult you in public on a regular basis.
Perhaps then we can talk about what persecution for justice's sake means in real life (and not as some abstract theological theory), who might actually be a "bystander" Christian, the cruelty of our financial system, and the threats to our beautiful planet earth.
PS the "moral dilemma" I face is whether I should advocate Christian engineers to become a collective and intentional influence in their largely self-regulating profession (a redundant statement, professions are, by definition, significantly self-regulating). One result would be the murder of such Christian engineers, in many places around the world, when they choose not to bystand to wrongdoing they witness related to their employment/engineering practice - or the loss of job, professional standing and economic security every else in world; and the bystanding of Christian religious professionals and the institutions they lead to their suffering/persecution for justice's sake.
Hi Diana,
First, I appreciate the attention to my perception. I apologize for the tone of my comments. I face a moral dilemma in that by dint of 30 years of whistleblowing about things relevant to nuclear weapon material security and national catastrophes as 9/11 and extent of covid casualties in USA; I am now an influential member of humanity's largest and most global profession of engineering regarding its secular creed/DNA - the scope and implementation of its code of ethics.
There is no collective and intentional Christian "salt and light" influence in my profession - never has been one, not since it took on its modern form about 1850 - and no Christian religious professional, from Pope on down, takes exception to it. Instead, as it has been repeatedly explained to me by many Christian religious professionals (I'm summarizing dozens of conversations) "
Joe, you are a Christian engineering professional and deliver engineering goods and services for your livelihood. I am a Christian religious professional and deliver religious good and services for my livelihood. Please do not come to me with concerns, no matter how valid, about how institutional evil, that results in many innocents deaths, is enabled in and through your significantly self-regulating profession of engineering. Because if I were to "rock boats" about how people as you - members of professions as engineers, lawyers, CPAs, MD's, etc. - make a living, some with "rock boats back" leaving me saying "would you like fries with that?" in my next job - and I have a family to care for. Please understand. Shalom.
Diana, I take no exception to the accuracy of any of the above. If Christian religious professionals were to take formal exception to established legal records of corporation or gov't agency law-breaking that kills people; to call for the resolution of well-evidenced claims of such law-breaking by whistleblowers like me; or express concern about allegations or legal determinations of reprisal against whistleblowers like me; it would not be in their self-interest; there likely would be negative consequences to their professional standing and economic security. No question in my mind.
But is their bystanding - even if a reflection of valid fears to their professional standing and economic security - the right answer vis-a-vis advancing and defending God's will on earth - presuming that includes trustworthy institutions that advance human flourishing, now and for posterity?
I'll move on, I have no desire to come across further as "fingers on a chalkboard" with you, as I now already have.
My first full time job as an engineer was to play an active role in the deaths of 20 million people, if so ordered, as an officer on a nuclear ballistic submarine. That was over 40 years ago and the Doomsday clock is closer to midnight now than then. Our unprecedented global civilization increasingly resembles a suicide machine and people as you don't "connect the dots" between the voluntary self-sacrifice of foolhardy folks as I in being whistleblowers in non-violently confronting institutional evil and maintaining and advancing the trustworthy societal institutions that are necessary - and possibly sufficient - for the commonwealth of God to arrive on earth.
I wish I were wrong in my observations - I would feel better about the chances of our first grandchild - due in 2/22 - getting to die a natural death after enjoying a flourishing life.
To be perfectly clear, this is a rude accusation:
But such a verse is "radioactive" to you and your demographic, best I can tell. Why? Because it might make, shall I say "inconvenient," demands on your/their professional standing and economic security - the operative "gods" of most middle class and above pewsitters in America (and rest of world) in 2021.
I also realize that this is you: https://www.govexec.com/management/2015/12/whistleblower-who-wont-go-away/124754/
And that you are willing to make sacrifices for the sake of a greater good. How about understanding that you aren't alone in that ability, and recognizing that many people are doing the same in their own ways, from their own places in life? I'm sorry if you have been treated badly. Just don't do the same to people you don't know. You aren't the only hero, and not everyone else is a bystander. We all do our bit.
I believe it was “radioactive to you and your demographic,” whatever that may be. (I work at a church and make less than $30,000/year. That demographic?) You want her to say something she didn’t say. You are saying things in a way she finds offensive. I suggest you read Grateful for some of her thoughts on how the world is unjustly structured. You could read Freeing Jesus for some of her thoughts on the Gospel. Both of these works were referenced in the post. There are layers and layers to her 8 theses, not all covered, of course, in the post. (This was, by the way, written before Diana was even aware of your latest comment. I am not posting for her. There was no nerve hit. She just thought you were rude.)
Quite simply: God is Love, don't blow up the world.
The entire world is surely blessed by your firm commitment and adherence to what truly matters within the context of authentic spirituality! Old ways are hard to change, but your voice is coming through loud and clear!
Re Thesis 5: Let's hope that asserting a canon -- a canon of love -- within the canon will defend us from those who prefer to use the Scriptures as a kind of arsenal or armory, and reach into them in order to grab hold of texts to be wielded as weapons. For me, the canon within the canon includes the Magnificat (Luke 1), and the Beatitudes (Matthew 5), which share this theme: For those who are weak, those who can never expect to "succeed" as the world measures success, those who are looked on as losers and failures, God nevertheless assures them of revolution and unmatched joy.
"A canon of love" - pretty wonderful!
You are an unimaginable treasure to us ‘progressives’ spread across the globe. (In my case Oz). Keep going!! You are doing great! And best wishes in your search for a community where you are welcomed. I think it was Brian McLaren who said, “you are not mad, and you are not alone”. 😌
What a great quote from Brian! And I love Oz. Glad to accompany you at this far distance.
Thank you Diana for your these 8 points. You were able to make clear for me what my faith is all about now as I have journeyed in these last ten years from evangelicalism ( numbers oriented) to a new way of living and practice, and yet I think the more authentic and and ancient way( formation/new creation)
I pray that these 8 points would exemplify my life as well
My favorite is #5. Just finished Stephen J. Patterson's "The Forgotten Creed." Loved it. Thanks for mentioning it in Tripp Fuller's class.
There are wonderful, but #4 gave me the most to think about today. The power of beauty on the path to liberation. Perhaps Keats had it correct about beauty and truth.
Where 2 or 3 agree in prayer… obviously I see more than that in agreement! There IS hope! Hallelujah!
I've been so disillusioned, and I thank you for helping me rebuild in my 60's.
Word.
Thank you, Jo.
A numbers orientation to growth leads churches to anticipate some kind of Pentecost experience if they can only “get it right.” I’m aware of a church that had spent several thousand dollars (been sold) on a church growth program that came in a Monopoly-sized box. They expected the incoming assistant pastor to implement it. I agree, Diana, that growth happens when individual and corporate houses are built on the solid ground of faith development, which doesn’t typically happen like a wind come sweeping down the plain! Thank you for your continued passion to nail things down for the sake of raising the things that elude nailing.😊