I guess the part that wearies me most is that this was all pretty obvious something like thirty years ago, maybe closer to forty years. Did we evacuees from the denomination back then not shout it from the rooftops enough? I’m sorry, I’m just so messed up at hearing same song, forty-fourth verse (since the beginning of the Takeover in 1979 or so), a little bit louder, a little bit worse.
When we take a deep breath & relax ( from all our running heather & yon) to remember we are all an off shoot of the most Patriarchal faith based system of divinity ever... What do we expect? As a group we accept what is convenient to our beliefs (of the moment) & not only ignore what is not but often condemn it, and those who follow it, at the same time.
Shall we try to, “love one another as I have love you! “ Trying as we do to place this all in the hands of the Holy Spirit and get on with the business of life, leaving the micromanaging out of the process. Wilber
My opinion: Complementarity in relationships is a good thing, but it needs to be based on innate traits of the partners these should not be dictates of some outside authority attaching these traits to gender.
I find it very ironic that a Baptist institution can be authoritarian. I was introduced to an American Baptist Church at the age of 14, when we moved to Evanston, Illinois. The following year I was baptized, a decision I made because one of the primary tenets of the church was the idea of "soul liberty," that everyone was free to create their own interpretation of the Bible. The democratic organization of both the individual church and the denomination also appealed to me. Actually, there is nothing that requires any church to remain a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and it is my hope that the more progressive churches will leave. In fact, this church was so liberal in the 1950's that they changed the rules to allow people like my parents, who had never been physically baptized, to join on the basis of a statement of faith.
Hi Diana, I just watched your 'Conversation' with Frank Schaeffer which brought so many memories of you, Westmont, Trinity SB etc. I just purchased 'Freeing Jesus' and look forward to reading it.
Thank you Dr. Bass. What an excellent reflection! In our congregation we are currently doing an online study of the "Imposter Epistles" - the disputed letters of Paul and this is very helpful as we work through the competing visions of the writings attributed to Paul.
Thank you, Diana, for your review of the history of the New Testament Epistles to the Ephesians and Galatians and their relation to long standing and current divisions over gender and race in Evangelical Christianity. As a Quaker, I believe when Christians look outside rather than within themselves for authority they will miss the meaning of the Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In the Spirit of Love for ourselves and others we unite. Otherwise, we divide and defeat ourselves and others. Sadly, Evangelical Christians go down the broad road of destruction with winners and losers. May Christians learn love is a win-win relationship - an authority more than conquerors.
Once again, you offer up words of wisdom and insight. Thank you, Dr. Bass.
As I read, "If you felt your mother and father were unfair, you were urged to obey even the most arbitrary of parental rules," I was reminded of a conflict my older sister had with my parents. Raised in a United Church of Christ with the rest of the family, my sister (as a teen) started attending a non-denominational, very conservative church in town. They taught the "If you felt your mother and father were unfair, you were urged to obey even the most arbitrary of parental rules" view of being a good teenaged girl. The thing is, my parents told her to question authority, to be skeptical of people who said they knew the answers, etc. This caused some cognitive dissonance for my sister.
Thanks, also, for so clearly stating the difference between egalitarianism and complementarianism. That's going to get quoted in sermons and on websites, I'm sure!
Just wanted to say somewhere and here is as good a place as any, that having living through a highly publicized fight within the Episcopal Church over full inclusion of all the baptized in the orders and communion of the body, I have a pinch of sympathy with most members of the SBC who are living through having well-meaning (and maybe not so well meaning) mainstream media reporters trying to explain their coming schism -- and just not able to "get it." The churched of all flavors are a mystery to the world at large and the reporting always reads wrong to most of us.
Not that I have any sympathy with any of the SBC tendencies (nor they with me) but I can empathize with all but the most misogynist, racist, and homophobic ones. And maybe even them. They are all feeling misrepresented by the world ...
I’m just a member, all my life, of the United Methodist church- no ministerial degrees or professional experience - and I have so valued reading your well grounded - yes, I loved your book - logical, and action-advocating perspectives. Not to mention the engaging, for laity like me, writing.
Thank you, Diana. Spot on. The Southern Baptist Church has so sadly lost its way that the only remedy is to dissolve the institution and allow the Holy Spirit to bring about something new in its place for those who have some memory or sense of what it means to be a "Baptist" Christian. There is so much detritus based on patently false Biblical interpretation and misunderstanding - and the Southern Baptists aren't the only guilty ones - that has led to rampant misogyny, sexism, homophobia, anti-science nonsense and horrifying abuse of Scripture that thwarts and does violence to the kind of human flourishing central to the Reign of God among us as revealed in the Gospel. Thanks again for your wisdom.
Perhaps the biggest problem is calling God Father. This gender identity automatically places the male concept in a position of authority. The real truth is birthing power, the creative force that gives and sustains life emanating from a Source of Love. Once humans brains get over the concept of dominance and control as the blueprint, then unity consciousness will flourish. Unfortunately church doctrine has continually programmed a spiritual blindness that requires a courageous leap beyond imposed limitations. Thank-you for being a voice that challenges the accepted forms of bondage!
I guess the part that wearies me most is that this was all pretty obvious something like thirty years ago, maybe closer to forty years. Did we evacuees from the denomination back then not shout it from the rooftops enough? I’m sorry, I’m just so messed up at hearing same song, forty-fourth verse (since the beginning of the Takeover in 1979 or so), a little bit louder, a little bit worse.
When we take a deep breath & relax ( from all our running heather & yon) to remember we are all an off shoot of the most Patriarchal faith based system of divinity ever... What do we expect? As a group we accept what is convenient to our beliefs (of the moment) & not only ignore what is not but often condemn it, and those who follow it, at the same time.
Shall we try to, “love one another as I have love you! “ Trying as we do to place this all in the hands of the Holy Spirit and get on with the business of life, leaving the micromanaging out of the process. Wilber
Wait, Paul didn't write Ephesians? How have I missed this?!
My opinion: Complementarity in relationships is a good thing, but it needs to be based on innate traits of the partners these should not be dictates of some outside authority attaching these traits to gender.
Why did you leave out the verse in ephesians: Be subject to one another...?
I find it very ironic that a Baptist institution can be authoritarian. I was introduced to an American Baptist Church at the age of 14, when we moved to Evanston, Illinois. The following year I was baptized, a decision I made because one of the primary tenets of the church was the idea of "soul liberty," that everyone was free to create their own interpretation of the Bible. The democratic organization of both the individual church and the denomination also appealed to me. Actually, there is nothing that requires any church to remain a part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and it is my hope that the more progressive churches will leave. In fact, this church was so liberal in the 1950's that they changed the rules to allow people like my parents, who had never been physically baptized, to join on the basis of a statement of faith.
Hi Diana, I just watched your 'Conversation' with Frank Schaeffer which brought so many memories of you, Westmont, Trinity SB etc. I just purchased 'Freeing Jesus' and look forward to reading it.
Best from Madison, Wisconsin!
Thank you Dr. Bass. What an excellent reflection! In our congregation we are currently doing an online study of the "Imposter Epistles" - the disputed letters of Paul and this is very helpful as we work through the competing visions of the writings attributed to Paul.
Thank you, Diana, for your review of the history of the New Testament Epistles to the Ephesians and Galatians and their relation to long standing and current divisions over gender and race in Evangelical Christianity. As a Quaker, I believe when Christians look outside rather than within themselves for authority they will miss the meaning of the Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In the Spirit of Love for ourselves and others we unite. Otherwise, we divide and defeat ourselves and others. Sadly, Evangelical Christians go down the broad road of destruction with winners and losers. May Christians learn love is a win-win relationship - an authority more than conquerors.
Once again, you offer up words of wisdom and insight. Thank you, Dr. Bass.
As I read, "If you felt your mother and father were unfair, you were urged to obey even the most arbitrary of parental rules," I was reminded of a conflict my older sister had with my parents. Raised in a United Church of Christ with the rest of the family, my sister (as a teen) started attending a non-denominational, very conservative church in town. They taught the "If you felt your mother and father were unfair, you were urged to obey even the most arbitrary of parental rules" view of being a good teenaged girl. The thing is, my parents told her to question authority, to be skeptical of people who said they knew the answers, etc. This caused some cognitive dissonance for my sister.
Thanks, also, for so clearly stating the difference between egalitarianism and complementarianism. That's going to get quoted in sermons and on websites, I'm sure!
Thank you so much for this clear discussion! I'm a grateful reader who always finds your writing worth reading.
Fine sermon. Thanks.
Just wanted to say somewhere and here is as good a place as any, that having living through a highly publicized fight within the Episcopal Church over full inclusion of all the baptized in the orders and communion of the body, I have a pinch of sympathy with most members of the SBC who are living through having well-meaning (and maybe not so well meaning) mainstream media reporters trying to explain their coming schism -- and just not able to "get it." The churched of all flavors are a mystery to the world at large and the reporting always reads wrong to most of us.
Not that I have any sympathy with any of the SBC tendencies (nor they with me) but I can empathize with all but the most misogynist, racist, and homophobic ones. And maybe even them. They are all feeling misrepresented by the world ...
I’m just a member, all my life, of the United Methodist church- no ministerial degrees or professional experience - and I have so valued reading your well grounded - yes, I loved your book - logical, and action-advocating perspectives. Not to mention the engaging, for laity like me, writing.
Thank you, Diana. Spot on. The Southern Baptist Church has so sadly lost its way that the only remedy is to dissolve the institution and allow the Holy Spirit to bring about something new in its place for those who have some memory or sense of what it means to be a "Baptist" Christian. There is so much detritus based on patently false Biblical interpretation and misunderstanding - and the Southern Baptists aren't the only guilty ones - that has led to rampant misogyny, sexism, homophobia, anti-science nonsense and horrifying abuse of Scripture that thwarts and does violence to the kind of human flourishing central to the Reign of God among us as revealed in the Gospel. Thanks again for your wisdom.
Perhaps the biggest problem is calling God Father. This gender identity automatically places the male concept in a position of authority. The real truth is birthing power, the creative force that gives and sustains life emanating from a Source of Love. Once humans brains get over the concept of dominance and control as the blueprint, then unity consciousness will flourish. Unfortunately church doctrine has continually programmed a spiritual blindness that requires a courageous leap beyond imposed limitations. Thank-you for being a voice that challenges the accepted forms of bondage!